8/24/2012 5:51:06 AM #

It is a pity that EMBT didn't manage to find a solution with MS, enabling genuine WinRT apps and not just VCL with a WinRT look&feel.  But - I don't think you can flunk EMBT in that respect, as they clearly are dependent on MS playing ball.

I never got on the XE2 FM train, as it was such an obvious train wreck in the first place.  It was a half-arsed, incomplete rushed out solution.  I never liked the XE2 iOS/MacOS FPC kludge, so I decided to not pursue that direction either.  Looking at XE3, that was 2 for 2 in right decisions.

I hope that FM2 has more substance, and that the new MacOS solution feel more solid.

The HTML5 Builder will be interesting to see.  If it generates just another standalone http server app, then it is another fail, but since I know nothing about the thing - I should not speculate.  

Lars Fosdal |

8/24/2012 7:09:01 AM #

Among all the jolly WinRT mudslinging, the fact remains.
You cannot produce a WinRT application using Delphi XE3.

With Windows Tablets hitting the market in the next few months, that
is not cool!

DelphiOutsider |

8/24/2012 7:30:24 AM #

This is nice:
"...Professionals take responsibility for the code they write. They do not release code unless they know it works. Think about that for a minute. How can you possibly consider yourself a professional if you are willing to release code that you are not sure of? Professional programmers expect QA to find nothing because they don't release their code until they've thoroughly tested it. Of course QA will find some problems, because no one is perfect. But as professionals our attitude must be that we will leave nothing for QA to find..."

EMB should read this in an endless loop

Also they *should focus* on product's quality - tons of "basic functionality failure" QC reports aren't fixed (generics, code insight, for-in loops, IDE etc).

FMX1 is just unusable for serious projects - it has many bugs, *performance problems* etc.

Delphi is missing basic built-in features like certificates, encryption, hashing, updated SOAP support etc. Nowadays these are a must.

Also which prof. dev. believes things happen using their "Just by one mouse click" advertisement?!? Delphi is not used only for placing pictures, effects and animations on a couple of forms!

EMB pretends to be rushing for having new technologies in their products. No - they rush only to release their products yearly.

And they have to listen more to what the Community says/wants. Feedback is very important. But first they have to begin sharing what they do earlier - not on World's tour or after they ship!

For me they *must* focus on improving quality of one Delphi/Builder version for about 1-3 years *AND* then release new version - a version that has really new and *working* features. The reason for that is very simple: when I buy RAD I expect to work on the "real thing", but not to face bugs and missings everytime I do projects. Finding solutions or workarounds only wastes dev's time. And this is not RAD's purpose, right?

I really hope EMB is going to change their approach *soon*. If not - they will constantly loose customers (i.e. money). At least they will loose me as a customer. Then you. Then him. Then what?!? Is that RAD's roadmap?

Being their customer for about two years I now watch not for what's new, but for what's fixed...

Petar |

8/24/2012 8:26:54 AM #

Nick, your comment was not deleted.  It's there and there are replies.

Jason Southwell |

8/24/2012 8:26:56 AM #

In general, I think calling Jolyon a "nattering-nabob-of-negativity" is being unkind to nattering-nabob-of-negativity.

That said, he's usually pretty good about leaving dissenting comments in place.  I still see yours, unless you mean another one that I haven't seen.

The conspiracy theory seems to be over the top, even for him.  I wonder what's gotten him riled up?

Bruce McGee |

8/24/2012 12:00:59 PM #

A fight, a fight! Cool!!

Urh, I mean... angst and frustration can make one's mind "explore" and think "provocatively".

I believe many are concerned that M$ has pulled a fast-one, which will enable them to undermine their competition for 1-to-many years.

Larry |

8/24/2012 1:18:12 PM #

Wow. That Allen-Bauer forum thread is really fascinating glimpse into the position that Embarcadero can get stuck in if Microsoft doesn't help them out.

I guess WinRT really will be a walled garden, with a special veto for Visual C++ apps, because Microsoft can't very well leave them out in the cold. I think they'd prefer if all the WinRT apps were done in C# but besides Delphi, I'm thinking that there's nobody else out there that they would even care to support for WinRT-land.

My prediction is Microsoft will consider, and then decide NOT to help anybody else out.

My second prediction is that WinRT is headed where all other Microsoft attempts at replacing Win32 have headed; To the technological dustbin, in a hurry.

Warren

Warren Postma |

8/24/2012 2:41:10 PM #

The thread at deltics evolved, amazing. Of course it does make sense to separate the mobile development from the desktop development and put it into a separate add-on built 'almost from scratch'. From a technical perspective this does make sense when considering update cycles.

I agree on the perception of customers to EMB. I don't believe in an ill intent.

btw: Another Kind of Pod - AIR Pod - Car powered by air pressure ... one model of many
http://www.mdi.lu/english/airpod.php
Times change.

Michael Thuma |

8/25/2012 10:34:40 AM #

I'm not as smart as you guys. Can someone please explain in very simplistic terms what it means when Delphi either can't or is excluded from creating WinRT apps? How does this effect a Micro-ISV like myself in terms of distribution and sales?

Michael Riley |

8/26/2012 2:09:50 AM #

Delphi is just a corporate product and as such, can not always be the subject of free speech. Any insider that publicly says bad things would soon get the boot. Any outsider can't possibly really know what's going on. It is just like in a communist dictatorship. Sure, you are free to criticize the party, and they are free to put you in the gulag. This is why I find Jolyon's posts to be so silly. He argues as if it is reasonable to expect openness from corporate employees, and TeamB, and complains when he thinks he does not get it. There is no such thing as a Freedom of Information Act for corporations, just the U.S. government.

For my part, I don't drink the Embarcadero Kool-Aid anymore than I drank the Borland Kool-Aid back when they were the favorite whipping boy of the malcontents. "Ah, if only some other corporation owned Delphi, we wouldn't be getting this kind of mismanagement and under-investment and deception!"  Ha! There is either no profit in higher levels of investment and information in Delphi, or corporations are remarkably inept in pursuing profit and sharing information.  If Delphi really is the best native development tool, then why is the market rejecting it badly enough for the CodeGear division within Embarcadero to be a mere shell of it's former self?  The CorporateSpeak blather about it being more popular than ever is exploded by going on the job sites and searching for it. It's just a niche product, not the hugely profitable juggernaut it would be if markets really did reward "the best".

No, what is going on is that Delphi gets few resources, as exhibited by the paucity of features in XE3, because it has a small market and therefore a small revenue stream, and the powers that be at Emb are not willing to take a risk and cross-subsidize Delphi. This is why we still can't just cross-compile Delphi code for all mobile devices and desktops after all these years. There's no real entrepreneurial spirit at Embarcadero, just like there was no real entrepreneurial spirit at Borland as soon as Phillipe Khan left his post for the second-hand executives to fill in.

It is silly to expect that this would somehow be different, or that some magical world of open information will grace us all, like Jolyon seems to be expecting. Corporations exist for one purpose only--to make a short-term profit for investors, not to satisfy consumer needs, nor to provide accurate information to cranky customers.

It looks like I will be taking a pass on XE3. Delphi is only a hobby for me these days, and truth be told, I've got some other hobbies now taking most of my time and money. I'll keep an eye on Delphi going forward, because I think that it is not impossible for Emb to get Delphi into that sweet spot where you CAN cross-compile for all interesting platforms, in a few years.  They are not there right now.

John Jacobson |

8/26/2012 7:31:40 PM #

John - you say I'm being silly for expecting the things you say we shouldn't expect, yet at the same time people assure me we are getting those things and that I am still somehow expecting too much.

Right or wrong, my perspective is at least consistent.  The perspectives being offered in exchange range from agreement to the naively optimistic - dare I say delusional.

Jolyon Smith |

8/26/2012 8:53:39 PM #

Nick, could you point out the things I was wrong on w.r.t the WinRT support ?

I have to ask because, it's not entirely clear whether the "strike-out" includes an admission on your part that what was said (Windows 8 "support" being confined to look-a-like theme + no App Store validity being mentioned) has in fact turned out to be entirely true (it has), leaving you with no other mud to sling than to make accusations so unspecific as to be more like a clumsy attempt at unsubstantiated character assassination rather than specific points of criticism.

I merely described how certain people's actions look, to me.  I didn't site here scratching my head and try to imagine what was in *anybody's* head.

That was a motivation - indeed, another imagined action - that you invented for me.

Jolyon Smith |

8/27/2012 7:44:08 AM #

The fact EMBT are showing a video that says "XE3 is the fastest route to Windows 8"
is misleading at best. They fail to mention you will have not be able to deploy to the Win8 Appstore, and also no contracts.  
These features are  CENTRAL to proper WinRT apps, and will be EXPECTED by users.
They are very careful with descriptions etc. and don't actualy lie, but that doesn't mean it's not misleading. This only fosters a distrustful relationship with developers.

If EMBT had revealed their plans on this 6 months ago, they would have realised their customers do NOT want "Fake WinRT" Apps could have spent those resources on building real WinRT support. (It may not have made it into XE3, but we would have been a lot closer)

It used to be, when you showed Delphi to a skeptical MS developer they would go away in shock, realising how poor their tools were.
If you showed an MS developer XE3's WinRT "features" he is more likely to start laughing.
.

Delphi Outsider |

8/30/2012 8:49:21 PM #

This may seem a little out of context but Jolyon has asked me to repeat some sentiments over here that I have recently made in delphi.non-technical and I see no real reason why I shouldn't.

Gents this turning on one another is seriously uncool. We are a community, not one that always agrees with each other, but we are a community. When talking about each other we should be careful not to offend and when reading other people's opinions we should be understanding and generous in our interpretations.

I invite you all NOT to respond.

Lachlan Gemmell |